The Second Morning Walk April 19, 1973
Recorded on April 19, 1973, in Cheviot Hills Park, Los Angeles.

Srila Prabhupada is accompanied by Dr. Singh (Svarup-Damodar),
Karandhara dasa adhikari, Brahmananda Svami and other students.

Darwinism Extinct

Srila Prabhupada.This material world is a composition of three qualities--sattva, rajas and tamas (goodness, passion and ignorance)--which are working everywhere. These three qualities are present in various proportions in all species of life. For example, some trees produce nice fruit, while others are simply meant for fuel. This is due to the association of particular qualities of nature. Among animals also, these three qualities are present. The cow is in the quality of goodness, the lion in passion, and the monkey in ignorance. According to Darwin, Darwin's father is a monkey. [Laughter.] He has theorized foolishly.
Dr. Singh. Darwin has said that some species become extinct in the struggle for survival. Those which are capable of surviving will survive, but those which are not will become extinct. So he says survival and extinction go side by side.
Srila Prabhupada. Nothing is extinct. The monkey is not extinct. Darwin's immediate forefather, the monkey, is still existing.
Karandhara. Darwin said there must be a natural selection. But selection means choice. So who is choosing?
Srila Prabhupada. That must be a person. Who is allowing someone to survive and someone to be killed? There must be some authority with discretion to give such an order. That is our first proposition. Who that authority is, is explained in Bhagavad-gita. Krsna says, mayadhyaksena prakrtih: "Nature is working under My supervision." (Bg. 9.10)
Dr. Singh. Darwin also says that the different species were not created simultaneously, but evolved gradually.
Srila Prabhupada. Then what is his explanation for how the process of evolution began?
Karandhara. Modern proponents of Darwinism say that the first living organism was created chemically.
Srila Prabhupada. And I say to them, "If life originated from chemicals, and if your science is so advanced, then why can't you create life biochemically in your laboratories?"

In the Future

Karandhara. They say they will create life in the future.
Srila Prabhupada. What future? When this crucial point is raised, they reply, "We shall do it in the future." Why in the future? That is nonsense. "Trust no future, however pleasant." If they are so advanced, they must demonstrate now how life can be created from chemicals. Otherwise what is the meaning of their advancement? They are talking nonsense.
Karandhara. They say that they are right on the verge of creating life.
Srila Prabhupada. That's only a different way of saying the same thing: "In the future." The scientists must admit that they still do not know the origin of life. Their claim that they will soon prove a chemical origin of life is something like paying someone with a postdated check. Suppose I give you a postdated check for ten thousand dollars but I actually have no money. What is the value of that check? Scientists are claiming that their science is wonderful, but when a practical example is wanted, they say they will provide it in the future. Suppose I say that I possess millions of dollars, and when you ask me for some money I say, "Yes, I will now give you a big postdated check. Is that all right?" If you are intelligent, you will reply, "At present give me at least five dollars in cash so I can see something tangible." Similarly, the scientists cannot produce even a single blade of grass in their laboratories, yet they are claiming that life is produced from chemicals. What is this nonsense? Is no one questioning this?
Karandhara. They say that life is produced by chemical laws.
Srila Prabhupada. As soon as there is a law, we must take into consideration that someone made the law. Despite all their so-called advancement, the scientists in their laboratories cannot produce even a blade of grass. What kind of scientists are they?
Dr. Singh. They say that in the ultimate analysis, everything came from matter. Living matter came from nonliving matter.
Srila Prabhupada. Then where is this living matter coming from now? Do the scientists say that life came from matter in the past but does not at the present? Where is the ant coming from now--from the dirt?

The Missing Link

Dr. Singh. in fact, there are several theories explaining how life originated from matter, how living matter came from the nonliving.
Srila Prabhupada. [casting Dr. Singh in the role of a materialistic scientist]. All right, scientist, why is life not coming from matter now? You rascal. Why isn't life coming from matter now? Actually such scientists are rascals. They childishly say that life came from matter, although they are not at all able to prove it. Our Krsna consciousness movement should expose all these rascals. They are only bluffing. Why don't they create life immediately? In the past, they say, life arose from matter; and they say that this will happen again in the future. They even say that they will create life from matter. What kind of theory is this? They have already commented that life began from matter. This refers to the past--"began." Then why do they now speak of the future? Is it not contradictory? They are expecting the past to occur in the future. This is childish nonsense.
Karandhara. They say that life arose from matter in the past and that they will create life this way in the future.
Srila Prabhupada. What is this nonsense? If they cannot prove that life arises from matter in the present, how do they know life arose this way in the past?
Dr. Singh. They are assuming...
Srila Prabhupada. Everyone can assume, but this is not science. Everyone can assume something. You can assume something, I can assume something. But there must be proof. We can prove that life arises from life. For example, a father begets a child. The father is living, and the child is living. But where is their proof that a father can be a dead stone? Where is their proof? We can easily prove that life begins from life. And the original life is Krsna. That also can be proven. But what evidence exists that a child is born of stone? They cannot actually prove that life comes from matter. They are leaving that aside for the future. [Laughter.]
Karandhara. The scientists say that they can now formulate acids, amino acids, that are almost like one-celled living organisms. They say that because these acids so closely resemble living beings, there must be just one missing link needed before they can create life.
Srila Prabhupada. Nonsense! Missing link. I'll challenge them to their face! [Laughter.] They are missing this challenge. The missing link is this challenge to their face.

Nobel Prize for an Ass

Dr. Singh. Some scientists hope that in the future they will be able to make babies in test tubes.
Srila Prabhupada. Test tubes?
Dr. Singh. Yes, they intend to combine male and female elements in biological laboratories.
Srila Prabhupada. If they begin with living entities, what is the purpose of the test tube? It is only a place for combination, but so is the womb. Where is the credit for the scientists if this is already being done in nature's test tube?
Karandhara. It is already being done by nature, but when some scientist does it, people will give him the Nobel Prize.
Srila Prabhupada. Yes, that is stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam: sva-vid-varahostra-kharaih samstutah purusah pasuh.[4] This verse indicates that those who praise men who are like animals are no better than dogs, hogs, camels and asses. Sva means "dog," vid-varaha means "stool-eating hog," ustra means "camel," and khara means "ass." If the Nobel Prize is given to a scientist who is a rascal, the men on the committee who give him that prize are no better than dogs, hogs, camels and asses. We don't accept them as human beings. One animal is praised by another animal. Where is the credit in that? If the men on the committee are no better than animals, anyone who receives the Nobel Prize in science is fool number one, because animals are praising him, not human beings.
Dr. Singh. For some scientists, the Nobel Prize is the ultimate.
Srila Prabhupada. They are rascals. They are speaking nonsense, and because they are juggling words, others are being misled.
Brahmananda Swami. Nobel is the person who invented dynamite.
Srila Prabhupada. He has created great misfortune, and he has left his money for creating further misfortune. [Laughter.]
Brahmananda Swami. The Gita says that demoniac people perform acts meant to destroy the world.
Srila Prabhupada. Yes. Ugra-karmanah ksayaya jagato 'hitah (Bg. 16.9). They perform acts meant for inauspiciousness and the destruction of the world.

The Difference Between the Living and the Nonliving

[Srila Prabhupada points at a dead tree with his cane.]
Srila Prabhupada. Formerly leaves and twigs were growing from this tree. Now they are not. How would the scientists explain this?
Karandhara. They would say the tree's chemical composition has changed.
Srila Prabhupada. To prove that theory, they must be able to inject the proper chemicals to make branches and leaves grow again. The scientific method includes observation, hypothesis and then demonstration. Then it is perfect. But the scientists cannot actually demonstrate in their laboratories that life comes from matter. They simply observe and then speak nonsense. They are like children. In our childhood, we observed a gramophone box and thought that within the box was a man singing, an electric man. We thought there must have been an electric man or some kind of ghost in it. [Laughter.]
Dr. Singh. One of the popular questions that arises when we start studying biology is "What is the difference between a living organism and that which is not living?" The textbooks say that the chief characteristics that distinguish the two are that a living being can move and reproduce, whereas dead matter can do neither. But the books never talk about the nature of the soul or about the consciousness of the living entity.
Srila Prabhupada. But consciousness is the primary indication that life is present. Only because of consciousness can a living being move and reproduce. Because a person is conscious, he thinks of marrying, and begetting children. And the original consciousness is described in the Vedas: tad aiksata bahu syam (Chandogya Upanisad 6.2.3). This means that God, the original conscious being, said, "I shall become many." Without consciousness, there is no possibility of by-products.

The Individual Living Force

Srila Prabhupada. The gardeners supply water to the green trees, so why don't they supply water to this dead tree and make it green?
Dr. Singh. From experience they know that it will not grow.
Srila Prabhupada. Then what is the element that is lacking? Scientists say that chemicals are the cause of life, but all the chemicals that were present when the tree was alive are still there. And these chemicals are still supporting the lives of many living entities such as microbes and insects. So they cannot say that life energy is lacking in the body of the tree. The life energy is there.
Dr. Singh. But what about the life energy of the tree itself?
Srila Prabhupada. Yes, that is the difference. The living force is individual, and the particular individual living entity that was the tree has left. This must be the case, since all the chemicals necessary to support life are still there, yet the tree is dead. Here is another example. Suppose I am living in an apartment, and then I leave it. I am gone, but many other living entities remain there--ants, spiders and so forth. So it is not true that simply because I have left the apartment, it can no longer accommodate life. Other living entities are still living there. It is simply that I--an individual living being--have left. The chemicals in the tree are like the apartment: they are simply the environment for the individual force--the soul--to act through. And the soul is an individual. I am an individual, and therefore I may leave the apartment. Similarly, the microbes are also individuals; they have individual consciousness. If they are moving in one direction but are somehow blocked, they think, "Let me go the other way." They have personality.
Karandhara. But in a dead body there is no personality.
Srila Prabhupada. This indicates that the individual soul has left that body. The soul has left, and therefore the tree does not grow.
Dr. Singh. Within the living body, Srila Prabhupada, there are innumerable small living entities, but the individual self who owns the body is also living there. Is that correct?
Srila Prabhupada. Yes. In my body there are millions of living entities. In my intestines there are many worms. If they become strong, then whatever I eat, they eat, and I derive no benefit from the food. Therefore those who are full of hookworms eat very much but do not grow. They become lean and thin, and they are very hungry, because these small living entities are eating their food. So there are thousands and millions of living entities in my body--they are individuals, and I am an individual--but I am the proprietor of the body, just as I may be the proprietor of a garden in which many millions of living entities reside.
Student. So if I eat krsna-prasada [food offered to Lord Krsna], are the living entities in my body also eating prasada?
Srila Prabhupada. Yes. You are very benevolent. [Laughs.] You take krsna-prasada for others.
Karandhara. Welfare work.
Srila Prabhupada. Yes, but there are so many things within you for them to eat that you do not need to make a separate endeavor to feed them.

Minimum Words, Maximum Solution

Srila Prabhupada. The individual soul is never lost. He does not die, nor is he born. He simply changes from one body to another, just as one changes garments. This is perfect science.
Dr. Singh. But why don't scientists accept this?
Srila Prabhupada. They are not nice men. They are rascals. They are not even gentlemen. Under appropriate circumstances, gentlemen will have some shyness or some shame. But these men are shameless. They cannot properly answer our challenges, yet they shamelessly claim that they are scientists and that they will create life. They are not even gentlemen. At least I regard them like that. A gentleman will be ashamed to speak nonsense.
Dr. Singh. They do not think before they speak.
Srila Prabhupada. That means that they are not human beings. A human being thinks twice before saying anything. Krsna makes the presence of life within the body so easy to understand. He says:

dehino 'smin yatha dehe / kaumaram yauvanam jara
tatha dehantara-praptir / dhiras tatra na muhyati

["As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change." (Bg. 2.13)] In these two lines, Krsna solves the whole biological problem. That is knowledge. Minimum words, maximum solution. Volumes of books expounding nonsense have no meaning. Materialistic scientists are like croaking frogs: ka-ka-ka, ka-ka-ka. [Srila Prabhupada imitates the sound of a croaking frog, and the others laugh.] The frogs are thinking, "Oh, we are talking very nicely," but the result is that the snake finds them and says, "Oh, here is a nice frog!" [Srila Prabhupada imitates the sound of a snake eating a frog.] Bup! Finished. When death comes, everything is finished. The materialistic scientists are croaking--ka-ka-ka--but when death comes, their scientific industry is finished, and they become dogs, cats or something like that.

The Third Morning Walk: April 28, 1973
Recorded on April 28, 1973, in cheviot Hills Park, Los Angeles.

Srila Prabhupada is accompanied by Dr. Singh,
Karandhara dasa adhikari and other students.

Scientists as Thieves

Srila Prabhupada. [holding a rose in his hand]. Can any scientist create a flower like this in the laboratory?
Dr. Singh. That is not possible.
Srila Prabhupada. No, it is not. Just see how wonderfully Krsna's energy is working! No scientist can create a flower like this in his laboratory. They cannot create even a few grains of sand, yet they claim to possess the most advanced intellects in the universe. This is foolish.
Dr. Singh. They take matter from Krsna, manipulate it, and then claim that they have created something wonderful.
Srila Prabhupada. At least if they would admit that they have taken the matter from Krsna, that would be good. We understand that everything comes from Krsna.
Dr. Singh. But they will not admit that they are taking anything from Krsna. Instead they say that they are the creators.
Srila Prabhupada. How have they created anything? They take the sand and mix it with some chemicals and make glass. They have not created the sand or the chemicals; they have taken them from the earth. How have they created anything?
Dr. Singh. They say, "We have taken the materials from nature."
Srila Prabhupada. "From nature" means from a person. They have taken from nature, but they are thieves because everything in nature belongs to Krsna. Isavasyam idam sarvam: "Everything is God's creation." (Isopanisad 1) In Bhagavad-gita Krsna states that if one does not perform yajna [sacrifice], he is a thief. Yajna means acknowledging that things have been taken from Krsna. We should think, "Krsna, You have given us many, many things for our maintenance." This much acknowledgment Krsna wants; that's all. Otherwise, what can He expect from you? What are you in His presence? We should acknowledge Krsna's kindness. Therefore, before we eat we offer the food to Krsna and say, "Krsna, You have given us this nice food, so first You taste it." Then we eat it. Krsna is not hungry, yet He can eat the whole world and then again produce it exactly as it was. Purnasya purnam adaya purnam evavasisyate (Isopanisad Invocation). Krsna is so perfect that if you take from Krsna all of Krsna's energy, all the original energy is still with Him. That is perfect conservation of energy.

The Origin of Nature

Dr. Singh. There is a scientific journal called Nature. It contains articles concerning natural products like plants, flowers and minerals, but it does not mention God.
Srila Prabhupada. We may rightly observe that plants are being produced by nature. But the next question we must ask is, "Who has produced nature?" To ask this is real intelligence.
Dr. Singh. They don't generally think about this.
Srila Prabhupada. Then they are foolish. Where does nature come from? As soon as we speak of nature, the next question should be, "Whose nature?" Is it not so? For instance, I speak of my nature, and you speak of your nature. Therefore, as soon as we speak of nature, the next inquiry should be, "Whose nature?" Nature means energy. And as soon as we speak of energy, we must inquire into the source of that energy. For example, if you speak of electric energy, you must accept its source, the powerhouse. How can you deny it? Electricity does not come to us automatically. Similarly, nature is not working automatically; it is under the control of Krsna.
Student. In the Vedas it is said that material energy works under Krsna's direction.
Srila Prabhupada. Yes. As soon as you speak of energy, there must be a source.

The Mirage of the Material World

Karandhara. Geologists study the strata of the earth's crust to trace out the origin of the earth.
Srila Prabhupada. But these strata are being created and destroyed at every moment. Now they are one way, and a half hour from now they will be different. They are jagat, always changing. Krsna states in Bhagavad-gita (8.4), adhibhutam ksaro bhavah: "Physical nature is known to be endlessly mutable." Therefore, one cannot find out the source of all energy simply by observing the energy itself. Now the earth's strata may be black, later they may be white, and then again black. So the geologists study the black color, then the white color, again the black, and so on. This is called punah punas carvita-carvananam, "chewing the chewed."[5] Now it is cold, at midday it will be warm, and at night it will be cold again. In this way, the entire material cosmic manifestation is subject to different types of change. Even our bodies are changing. Everything is changing. But what is the eternity behind this changing? That is the subject of real knowledge. The scientists do not find that eternity, and therefore they are disappointed. They think that the background of everything is void, zero. They think that eternity is zero. And when they are asked where this zero comes from, they say, "It comes from nothing." So we must ask them, "How have the varieties come about?" The Vedic conclusion is that variety is eternal, although the changing varieties the scientists study in the material world are temporary. These varieties are shadow varieties. Real variety exists eternally in the spiritual world.
Dr. Singh. So the material universe is like a mirage?
Srila Prabhupada. Yes. Suppose I think I see water in the desert when there is not water. This is an illusion. Water exists, but not in the mirage. Similarly, the material varieties we see--the varieties of enjoyment--are like that mirage. We, the living entities, are meant for enjoyment, but we are seeking enjoyment in a false place--in an illusion. We are like the desert animals who run after water in a mirage and eventually die of thirst. They cannot relieve their thirst with such illusory water. Similarly, we are trying to manufacture many things to satisfy our thirst for enjoyment, but we are being baffled at every turn because material existence is an illusion. Therefore real intelligence means to inquire, "Where is the reality? Where is the eternal substance behind the illusion?" if we can find that out, we can experience real enjoyment.

The Fourth Morning Walk: April, 29, 1973
Recorded on April, 29, 1973, on the shores of the Pacific Ocean near Los Angeles

Srila Prabhupada is accompanied by Dr. Singh,
Brahmananda Svami, Karandhara dasa adhikari and other students.

The Progress of the Asses

Srila Prabhupada. Everyone is suffering here in the material world, and scientific improvement means that the scientists are creating a situation of further suffering. That's all. They are not making improvements. Bhaktivinoda Thakura[6] confirms this by saying, moha janamiya, anitya samsare, jivake karaye gadha: "By so-called scientific improvements, the scientist has become an ass." Moreover, he is becoming a better and better ass, and nothing more. Suppose that by working very hard like an ass, a person builds a skyscraper. He may engage in a lifelong labor for this, but ultimately he must die. He cannot stay; he will be kicked out of his skyscraper, because material life is impermanent. Scientists are constantly doing research, and if you ask them what they are doing, they say, "Oh, it is for the next generation, for the future." But I say, "What about you? What about your skyscraper? If in your next life you are going to be a tree, what will you do with your next generation then?" But he is an ass. He does not know that he is going to stand before his skyscraper for ten thousand years. And what about the next generation? If there is no petrol, what will the next generation do? And how will the next generation help him if he is going to be a cat, a dog or a tree?
   The scientists--and everyone else--should endeavor to achieve freedom from the repetition of birth and death. But instead, everyone is becoming more and more entangled in the cycle of birth and death. Bhave 'smin klisyamananam avidya-kama-karmabhih. This is a quotation from Srimad-Bhagavatam (1.8.35). Here in one line the whole material existence is explained. This is literature. This one line is worth thousands of years of research work. It explains how the living entity is taking birth in this world, where he comes from, where he is going, what his activities should be, and many other essential things. The words bhave 'smin klisyamananam refer to the struggle for existence. Why does this struggle exist? Because of avidya, ignorance. And what is the nature of that ignorance? Kama-karmabhih, being forced to work simply for the senses, or in other words, entanglement in material sense gratification.
Student. So, is it true that modern scientific research increases the demands of the body because the scientist is ultimately working to gratify his senses?
Srila Prabhupada. Yes.

Word Jugglery and World Crisis

Srila Prabhupada. It is said in the Vedas, yasmin vijnate sarvam evam vijnatam bhavati: "If one knows the Absolute Truth, then all other things become known." I am not a Ph.D., yet I can challenge the scientists. Why? Because I know Krsna, the Absolute Truth. Yasmin sthito na duhkhena gurunapi vicalyate: "If one is situated in Krsna consciousness, then even in the greatest calamities he will not be disturbed." (Bg. 6.22) Srimad-Bhagavatam (1.5.22) declares, avicyuto 'rthah kavibhir nirupito yad uttamasloka-gunanuvarnanam: "Great personalities have decided that Krsna consciousness is the perfection of life." This kind of knowledge is required. Not that we do some research, come up with a theory, and after fifteen years say, "No, no, it is not right--it is another thing." That is not science; that is child's play.
Dr. Singh. That is how they discover things--by research.
Srila Prabhupada. And what is the cost of the research? It is a scientific method for drawing money from others, that's all. In other words, it is cheating. Scientists juggle words like plutonium, photons, hydrogen and oxygen, but what good will people get from this? When people hear this jugglery of words, what can they say? One scientist explains something to some extent, and then another rascal comes along and explains it again, but differently, with different words. And all the time the phenomenon has remained the same. What advancement has been made? They have simply produced volumes of books. Now there is a petrol problem. Scientists have created it. If the petrol supply dwindles away, what will these rascal scientists do? They are powerless to do anything about it.

The Billion-Dollar Dustheap

Srila Prabhupada. Now there is a scarcity of water in India, but what are the scientists doing about it? There is more than enough water in the world, so why don't the scientists bring water where it is urgently required? They should employ irrigation immediately. But instead they are going to the moon, the dusty planet, to make it fertile. Why don't they irrigate this planet? There's plenty of seawater, so why don't they irrigate the Sahara or the Arabian or Rajasthani Desert? "Yes," they say, "in the future. We are trying." In their pride, they immediately say, "Yes, yes. We are trying." In Bhagavad-gita it is said that when one is engaged in the business of satisfying unnecessary desires, he becomes bereft of all intelligence (kamais tais tair hrta-jnanah).
   This moon project is childish. Those who aspire to go to the moon are like crying children. A child cries, "Mother, give me the moon," so the mother gives the child a mirror and says, "Here is the moon, my dear son." And the child takes the mirror, sees the moon in it and says, "Oh, I have the moon." Unfortunately, this is not just a story.
Karandhara. After spending all that money to go to the moon and bring back just a few rocks, the people on the space project decided that there was nothing more to do there.
Brahmananda Swami. Now they want to go to another planet, but they are short of money. Going to other planets costs millions and billions of dollars.
Srila Prabhupada. People work very hard while the rascal government takes taxes and spends money unnecessarily. There should be no sympathy when so much hard-earned money comes from the public and is spent so foolishly. Now the leaders are presenting another bluff "Don't worry, we are going to another planet. Now we shall bring more dust. We shall bring tons of dust. Oh, yes, now we shall have tons of dust."
Dr. Singh. They believe there may be life on Mars.
Srila Prabhupada. They may believe or not believe. What is the difference? Life exists here, but people are fighting. So suppose there is life on Mars. There is life on Mars, undoubtedly. But what will we gain from this?
Dr. Singh. People are curious to know what is going on there.
Srila Prabhupada. That means that for their childish curiosity they must spend vast sums of money. Just see the fun. And when they are asked to help one of the many poverty-stricken countries, they say, "No. No money." Do you see?

Sankhya Philosophy and Modern Science

Dr. Singh. Srila Prabhupada, may we hear a little bit about Sankhya philosophy?
Srila Prabhupada. There are actually two kinds of Sankhya philosophy: the ancient Sankhya philosophy originally taught by Lord Kapiladeva, and the modern Sankhya philosophy taught more recently by the atheist Kapila. Lord Kapila's Sankhya explains how to become detached from matter and search out Lord Visnu within the heart. This Sankhya is actually a process of devotional service. But the modern Sankhya philosophy simply analyzes the material world into its various elements. In that respect, it is just like modern scientific research. Sankhya means "to count." We are also Sankhya philosophers to some extent because we count the material elements: this is land, this is water, this is fire, this is air, this is ether. Furthermore, I can count my mind, my intelligence and my ego. Beyond my ego, however, I cannot count. But Krsna says that there is something beyond the ego, and that is the living force. This is what scientists do not know. They think that life is merely a combination of material elements, but Krsna denies this in the Bhagavad-gita (7.5):

apareyam itas tv anyam / prakrtim viddhi me param
jiva-bhutam maha-baho / yayedam dharyate jagat

"Besides this inferior nature [earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego] there is a superior energy of Mine, which consists of all the living entities who are struggling with material nature and sustaining the universe."
Dr. Singh. Are both the inferior and the superior energies studied in modern Sankhya philosophy?
Srila Prabhupada. No. Modern Sankhya philosophers do not study the superior energy. They simply analyze the material elements, just as the scientists are doing. The scientists do not know that there is spirit soul, nor do the Sankhya philosophers.
Dr. Singh. They are analyzing the creative material elements?
Srila Prabhupada. The material elements are not creative! Only the soul is creative. Life cannot be created from matter, and matter cannot create itself. You, a living entity, can mix hydrogen and oxygen to create water. But matter itself has no creative potency. If you place a bottle of hydrogen near a bottle of oxygen, will they automatically combine, without your help?
Dr. Singh. No. They must be mixed.
Srila Prabhupada. Of course. Oxygen and hydrogen are Krsna's inferior energy, but when you, the superior energy, mix them, then they can become water.

The Remote Cause and the Immediate Cause

Srila Prabhupada. Inferior energy has no power unless superior energy is involved. This sea [indicating the Pacific Ocean] is calm and quiet. But when the superior force, air, pushes it, it manifests high waves. The ocean has no power to move without the superior force of the air. Similarly, there is another force superior to the air, and another and another, until ultimately we arrive at Krsna. This is real research. Krsna controls nature just as an engineer controls a train. The engineer controls the locomotive, which pulls one car, and that car in turn pulls another, which pulls another, and so the whole train is moving. Similarly, with the creation, Krsna gives the first push, and then, by means of successive pushes, the entire cosmic manifestation comes into being and is maintained. This is explained in Bhagavad-gita (9.10). Mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sacaracaram: "This material nature is working under My direction and is producing all moving and unmoving beings." And in the Fourteenth Chapter (14.4) Krsna says:

sarva-yonisu kaunteya / murtayah sambhavanti yah
tasam brahma mahad yonir / aham bija-pradah pita

"All species of life are made possible by birth in this material nature, O son of Kunti, and I am the seed-giving father." For example, if we sow a banyan seed, a huge tree eventually comes up and, along with it, millions of new seeds. Each of these seeds can in turn produce another tree with millions of new seeds, and so on. This is how Krsna, the original seed-giving father, is the primary cause of everything we see.
Unfortunately, the scientists observe only the immediate cause; they cannot perceive the remote cause. Krsna is described in the Vedas as sarva-karana-karanam, the cause of all causes. If one understands the cause of all causes, then he understands everything. Yasmin vijnate sarvam evam vijnatam bhavati: "If one knows the original cause, the subordinate causes are automatically known." Although the scientists are searching after the original cause, when the Vedas, perfect knowledge, declare the original cause to be the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the scientists won't accept it. They keep to their partial, imperfect knowledge. This is their disease.

The Cosmic Machine

Srila Prabhupada. Scientists do not know that there are two types of energy--inferior and superior--although they are actually working with these two energies every day. Material energy can never work independently; it must first come in contact with spiritual energy. So how can people accept that the entire cosmic manifestation, which is nothing but matter, has come about automatically? A competent machine does not work unless a man who knows how to work it pushes a button. A Cadillac is a nice car, but if it has no driver, what is the use of it? So the material universe is also a machine.
People are amazed at seeing a big machine with many, many parts, but an intelligent person knows that however wonderful a machine may be, it does not work unless an operator comes and pushes the proper button. Therefore, who is more important--the operator or the machine? So we are concerned not with the material machine--this cosmic manifestation--but with its operator, Krsna. Now you may say, "Well, how do I know that He is the operator?" Krsna says, mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sacaracaram: "Under My direction the whole cosmic manifestation is working." If you say, "No, Krsna is not the operator behind the cosmos," then you have to accept another operator, and you must present him. But this you cannot do. Therefore, in the absence of your proof, you should accept mine.

The Fifth Morning Walk: May 3, 1973
Recorded on May 3, 1973, on the shores of the Pacific Ocean near Los Angeles

Srila Prabhupada is accompanied by Dr. Singh and Brahmananda Svami.

The Invisible Pilot

Srila Prabhupada. Almost everyone in the world is under the false impression that life is born from matter. We cannot allow this nonsensical theory to go unchallenged. Life does not come from matter. Matter is generated from life. This is not theory; it is fact. Science is based on an incorrect theory; therefore all its calculations and conclusions are wrong, and people are suffering because of this. When all these mistaken modern scientific theories are corrected, people will become happy. So we must challenge the scientists and defeat them; otherwise they will mislead the entire society. Matter changes in six phases: birth, growth, maintenance, production of by-products, dwindling and death. But the life within matter, the spirit soul, is eternal; it goes through no such changes. Life appears to be developing and decaying, but actually it is simply passing through each of these six phases until the material body can no longer be maintained. Then the old body dies, and the soul enters a new body. When our clothing is old and worn, we change it. Similarly, one day our bodies become old and useless, and we pass on to a new body.
   As Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita (2.13), dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumaram yauvanam jara. tatha dehantara-praptih: "As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death." And a little later (2.18): antavanta ime deha nityasyoktah saririnah. This means that only the material body of the indestructible and eternal living entity is subject to destruction. The material body is perishable, but the life within the body is nitya, eternal.
   Everything works on the basis of this living force. This is the Pacific Ocean, and these high waves are being manipulated by living force. This airplane [Srila Prabhupada gestures toward a passing aircraft] is flying, but is it flying undirected?
Dr. Singh. Someone is directing it.
Srila Prabhupada. Yes. Everything is working under someone's direction. Why do the rascal scientists deny this? The airplane is a big machine, but it is flying under the direction of a small spiritual spark, the pilot. Scientists cannot prove that this big 747 airplane could fly without the small spiritual spark. So, as the small spiritual spark can direct a large plane, the big spiritual spark directs the whole cosmic manifestation.

Setting the Real Problems Aside

Srila Prabhupada. The Svetasvatara Upanisad says:

kesagra-sata-bhagasya / satamsah sadrsatmakah
jivah suksma-svarupo 'yam / sankhyatito hi cit-kanah

According to this verse, the measurement of the soul, the proprietor of the body, is one ten-thousandth part of the tip of a hair. This is very small--atomic. But because of that atomic spiritual energy, my body is working. That atomic spiritual energy is within the body, and therefore the body works, and the airplane flies. Is it so difficult to understand?
Suppose a man thinks himself very stout and strong. Why is he stout and strong? It is only because within him there exists a spiritual spark. As soon as the small spiritual spark is gone, his strength and vigor disappear, and the vultures come and eat his body. If scientists say that matter is the cause and origin of life, then let us ask them to bring back to life just one dead man, one great man like Professor Einstein. Let them inject some chemicals so that just one dead man may come back to life and work again. But this they cannot do. There are so many things they do not know, but still they are called scientists.
Dr. Singh. Sometimes when a problem is too dreadfully serious, we tend to take it lightly.
Srila Prabhupada. Yes. When a monkey confronts a tiger, the monkey closes its eyes, and the tiger immediately attacks. Similarly, if scientists cannot solve a problem, they may think, "All right, let it go on." This is actually what they are doing, because our real problem is death. No one wants to die, but scientists cannot stop death. They speak superficially about death because they cannot give any relief from it. We do not wish to die, we do not wish to become old, and we do not wish to become diseased. But what help can the scientists offer? They cannot do anything about it. They have set aside the major problems.

President Jackal

Srila Prabhupada. In Bengal there is a story called jangal-ki raja, concerning a jackal who became king of the forest. Jackals are known for their cunning. One day this jackal came into a village and fell into a tub of blue dye. He fled to the forest, but he had become blue. So all the animals said, "What is this? What is this? Who is this animal?" Even the lion was surprised: "We have never seen you before, sir. So who are you?" The jackal replied, "I have been sent by God." So they began to worship him as God. But then one night some other jackals began to cry: "Wa, wa, wa!" And since jackals cannot restrain themselves from returning the call of their own kind, this blue jackal also began to cry, "Wa, wa, wa!" And thus he exposed himself before all the other animals as being nothing more than a jackal. Many jackals have been arrested and have resigned from your government.
Brahmananda Swami. The Watergate affair. It is called the Watergate scandal.
Srila Prabhupada. Practically speaking, at the present moment no honest man can become a government official. This is true everywhere. Unless one is a rogue, a dishonest person, one cannot maintain his governmental position. Therefore no noble man goes into the government. But what can you do?
Dr. Singh. Politicians are the greatest cheaters.
Srila Prabhupada. Yes, they are scoundrels. One philosopher said that politics is the last resort of scoundrels.

Science Should Stop Death

Brahmananda Swami. Do scientists know the cause of cancer?
Dr. Singh. They have several theories.
Srila Prabhupada. Suppose you know the cause of cancer. What is the benefit? Even if you could stop cancer, you could not make a man live forever. That is not possible. Cancer or no cancer, a man has to die. He cannot stop death. Death may be caused, if not by cancer, simply by an accident. Real scientific research should aim at stopping death. That is real science, and that is Krsna consciousness. Simply to discover some medicine to cure disease is not a triumph. The real triumph is to stop all disease. Bhagavad-gita (8.16) asserts that the real trouble is birth, death, old age and disease. Abrahma-bhuvanal lokah punar avartino 'rjuna: "From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place." The solution to the problem of repeated birth and death is Krsna consciousness, which we are practicing and offering to everyone. The perfect result of this practice is that after the present body becomes useless and dies, one is no longer forced to accept a material body subject to birth, death, disease and old age. This is real science.

The Sixth Morning Walk: May 7, 1973
Recorded on May 7, 1973, on the shores of the Pacific Ocean near Los Angeles

Srila Prabhupada is accompanied by Dr. Singh, Brahmananda Svami and other students.

Chemicals From Mystic Power

Srila Prabhupada. The scientists say that life begins from chemicals. But the real question is, "Where have the chemicals come from?" The chemicals come from life, and this means that life has mystic powers. For example, an orange tree contains many oranges, and each orange contains chemicals--citric acid and others. So where have these chemicals come from? Obviously they have come from the life within the tree. The scientists are missing the origin of the chemicals. They have started their investigation from the chemicals, but they cannot identify the origin of the chemicals. Chemicals come from the supreme life--God. Just as the living body of a man produces many chemicals, the supreme life (the Supreme Lord) is producing all the chemicals found in the atmosphere, in the water, in humans, in animals and in the earth. And that is called mystic power. Unless the mystic power of the Lord is accepted, there is no solution to the problem of the origin of life.
Dr. Singh. The scientists will reply that they cannot believe in mystic power.
Srila Prabhupada. But they must explain the origin of the chemicals. Anyone can see that an ordinary tree is producing many chemicals. But how does it produce them? Since the scientists cannot answer this, they must accept that the living force has mystic power. I cannot even explain how my fingernail is growing out of my finger; it is beyond the power of my brain. In other words, my fingernail is growing by inconceivable potency, acintya-sakti. So if acintya-sakti exists in an ordinary human being, imagine how much acintya-sakti God possesses. The difference between God and me is that although I have the same potencies as God, I can produce only a small quantity of chemicals, whereas He can produce enormous quantities. I can produce a little water in the form of perspiration, but God can produce the seas. Analysis of one drop of seawater gives you the qualitative analysis of the sea, without any mistake. Similarly, the ordinary living being is part and parcel of God, so by analyzing the living beings we can begin to understand God. In God there is great mystic potency. God's mystic potency is working swiftly, exactly like an electric machine. Some machines operate by electrical energy, and they are so nicely made that all the work is done simply by pushing a button. Similarly, God said, "Let there be creation," and there was creation. Considered in this way, the workings of nature are not very difficult to understand. God has such wonderful potencies that the creation, on His order alone, immediately takes place.
Brahmananda Swami. Some scientists don't accept God or acintya-sakti.
Srila Prabhupada. That is their rascaldom. God exists, and His acintya-sakti also exists. Where does a bird's power to fly come from? Both you and the bird are living entities, but the bird can fly because of its acintya-sakti, and you cannot. To give another example, semen is produced from blood. A man has mystic power in his body so that because he is sexually inclined, blood is transformed into semen. How is this done unless there is some mystic power involved? There are many mystic powers in the living entities. The cow eats grass and produces milk. Everyone knows this, but can you take some grass and produce milk? Can you? Therefore there is mystic power within the cow. As soon as the cow eats grass, she can transform it into milk. Men and women are basically the same, but as a man you cannot eat food and produce milk, although a woman can. These are mystic powers.
Dr. Singh. Scientists would say that there are different enzymes or chemicals inside different types of bodies and that these account for the cow's producing milk.
Srila Prabhupada. Yes, but who produced those enzymes and that arrangement? That was done by mystic power. You cannot make these enzymes or that arrangement. You cannot produce milk from dry grass in your laboratory. Within your body, by mystic power, you can transform food into blood and tissue, but in your laboratory, without mystic power, you cannot even transform grass into milk. Therefore you must accept the existence of mystic power.

The Origin of Mystic Power

Srila Prabhupada. Yogis are mainly concerned with developing different mystic powers. A yogi can walk on the water without drowning. The law of gravity does not operate on him. That is a mystic power called laghima. Laghima means that a person can become lighter than cotton and counteract the law of gravity. The yoga system simply develops the inconceivable potency already present in the practitioner. These boys are swimming [gesturing to surf bathers], but I cannot swim. Yet that swimming power is potential within me; I simply have to practice it. So, if yogic power is so potent in the human being, think how much more yogic power God has. Therefore, in the Vedas He is called Yogesvara, which means "master of all mystic power." In the Bhagavad-gita (10.8) Krsna says, aham sarvasya prabhavo mattah sarvam pravartate: "I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me." Unless we accept this statement from God, there is no conclusive explanation to the origin of material nature. God cannot be understood without accepting the existence of mystic power, but if you understand God scientifically, then you will understand everything.
Dr. Singh. So do you mean to say that science has started from an intermediate point--not from the original point?
Srila Prabhupada. Yes, that is it exactly. They are ignorant of the origin. The scientists start from one point--but where does that point come from? That they do not know, in spite of vast research. One has to accept that the original source is God, who is full of all mystic powers and from whom everything emanates. He Himself says in the Bhagavad-gita, aham sarvasya prabhavo mattah sarvam pravartate: "I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me." Our conclusions are not based on blind faith; they are most scientific. Matter comes from life. In life--in the origin--there are unlimited material resources; that is the great mystery of creation. If you drop a needle, it will fall immediately, but a bird weighing several pounds can float in the air. We must establish the origin of this floating. If we study nature, we find that every living entity has some mystic power. A man cannot live within the water for more than a few hours, yet a fish lives there continuously. is that not mystic power?
Dr. Singh. It is mystic power for me, but not for the fish.
Srila Prabhupada. Yes. That is because mystic power is not uniformly distributed. But all the mystic powers exist in God, the origin of everything. I derive some of His mystic power, you derive some, and the birds derive some. But the storehouse of mystic power is God.
   There are eight basic types of mystic powers. Some of them are laghima (by which one can become lighter than a feather), mahima (by which one can become bigger than a mountain), prapti (which enables one to capture anything he likes) and isitva (by which one can completely subdue and control another being). Another type of mystic power can be seen in the sun, because from the sunshine innumerable things are inexplicably produced. Unless the scientists accept the existence of mystic power, they cannot explain these phenomena. They are simply beating around the bush.
Dr. Singh. A clever scientist may say anything to prove his point, without actually proving it. A real scientist must reach the ultimate, original cause--the final analysis.
Srila Prabhupada. Yes, unless he finds the ultimate source, he is not actually practicing science.
Dr. Singh. Does understanding mysticism mean knowing that every day our bodies are dying?
Srila Prabhupada. Yes.
Dr. Singh. But the average man does not think he is dying.
Srila Prabhupada. That is due to foolishness. Every moment he is dying, but he is thinking, "I shall live forever." Actually, death begins from the very moment of birth. Our analysis of the problem is that since people are dying, we should stop their death. But the so-called scientists are not only accelerating the process of death, but also refusing to take constructive advice to correct themselves.

The Seventh Morning Walk: May 8, 1973
Recorded on May 8, 1973, on the shores of the Pacific Ocean near Los Angeles

Srila Prabhupada is accompanied by Dr. Singh and other students.

The Cheaters and the Cheated

Srila Prabhupada. Natural phenomena such as the law of gravity or weightlessness are acintya-sakti, inconceivable energies, and real science means to understand this acintya-sakti. To observe a chain of events only from a certain point in time is unscientific and gives only incomplete knowledge. We must know where things begin. If we carry our investigation far enough, we will find that the origin of nature is acintya-sakti. For example, with brain, brush and color we can paint a flower. But we cannot conceive how vegetation throughout the whole earth is automatically growing and fructifying. We can explain the painted flower, but we cannot explain the real flower. Scientists actually cannot explain biological growth. They simply juggle words like molecule and chromosome, but they cannot actually explain the phenomena.
The essential fault of the so-called scientists is that they have adopted the inductive process to arrive at their conclusions. For example, if a scientist wants to determine by the inductive process whether or not man is mortal, he must study every man to try to discover if some or one of them may be immortal. The scientist says, "I cannot accept the proposition that all men are mortal. There may be some men who are immortal. I have not yet seen every man. Therefore how can I accept that man is mortal?" This is called the inductive process. And the deductive process means that your father, your teacher or your guru says that man is mortal, and you accept it.
Dr. Singh. So there is an ascending process of gaining knowledge and a descending process?[7]
Srila Prabhupada. Yes. The ascending process will never be successful, because it relies on the information gathered through the senses, and the senses are imperfect. So we accept the descending process.
God cannot be known by the inductive process. Therefore He is called adhoksaja, which means "unknowable by direct perception." The scientists say there is no God because they are trying to understand Him by direct perception. But He is adhoksaja! Therefore, the scientists are ignorant of God because they are missing the method of knowing Him. In order to understand transcendental science, one must approach a bona fide spiritual master, hear from him submissively and render service to him. Lord Krsna explains that in the Bhagavad-gita (4.34): tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya.
My Guru Maharaja[8] once said, "The modern world is a society of the cheaters and the cheated." Unfortunately, the cheated are eulogizing the cheaters, and the small cheaters are worshiping the great cheaters. Suppose a flock of asses comes and eulogizes me, saying, "Oh, you are Jagad-guru."[9] What is the value of their praise? But if a gentleman or learned man gives praise, his words have some value. Generally, however, the persons who are praising and those who are being praised are both ignorant. As the Vedas put it, samstutah purusah pasuh: "A big animal is being praised by a small animal."

Compassion

Srila Prabhupada. The law is cheating, medical science is cheating, and the government is cheating. Top government officials are charged with taking bribes. If the governor takes bribes and the constable takes bribes, then where is the good society? People elect the leader who promises them happiness. But since that happiness is maya [or illusion], he can never deliver it, and society simply becomes filled with cheaters. Since people are actually after this illusory happiness, however, they continue to elect such unscrupulous leaders time and time again.
The position of a Vaisnava[10] is to take compassion on all these ignorant people. The great Vaisnava Prahlada Maharaja once prayed to the Lord, "My Lord, as far as I am concerned, I have no problems. My consciousness is always absorbed in Your very powerful transcendental activities, and therefore I have understood things clearly. But I am deeply concerned for these rascals who are engaged in activities for illusory happiness." A Vaisnava thinks only about how people can become happy. He knows that they are vainly searching after something that will never come to be. For fifty or sixty years people search after illusory happiness, but then they must die without completing the work and without knowing what will happen after death. Actually, their position is like that of an animal, because an animal also does not know what happens to him after death. The animal does not know the value of life, nor why he has come here. By the influence of maya, he simply eats, sleeps, mates, defends and dies. That's all. Throughout their lives the ignorant animals--and the animalistic men--greatly endeavor to do these five things only: eat, sleep, mate, defend and die. Therefore the business of a Vaisnava is to instruct people that God exists, that we are His servants, and that we can enjoy an eternally blissful life serving Him and developing our love for Him.

Beyond the Cage

Dr. Singh. But doesn't the living entity need matter as long as he is in material nature?
Srila Prabhupada. No, the living entity is purely spiritual; therefore, he doesn't require matter. Because his thinking is diseased, however, he believes he does. The conditioned living entity is like a drunkard who doesn't require drinking, but who nevertheless thinks, "Without drinking, I shall die." This is called maya, or illusion. is it true that if a drunkard doesn't get his drink, he will die?
Dr. Singh. No, but if a man doesn't eat, he will die.
Srila Prabhupada. That's also not a fact. Last night we were discussing Raghunatha dasa Gosvami.[11] In his later life, he almost completely abstained from eating and sleeping. He would drink only a little buttermilk every three or four days, and he worked twenty-two hours a day, sleeping two or three. And some days he did not sleep at all. So you may ask, "How could he survive?" Actually, he lived for one hundred years. Eating, sleeping, mating and defending were not problems for Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, but still he lived. Because he was a pure devotee of Krsna, he was fully aware that the soul is eternal and independent, although it has been put into this bodily cage, which it actually does not require. Suppose a bird is encaged. Is he living simply because he is in the cage? Without the cage he is free. People are thinking that by being encaged within the body they are happy. That is nonsense. Actually, our encagement within this body makes us fearful. But as soon as we purify our existence--we do not even have to come out of our bodies--we will immediately be abhaya, fearless.

brahma-bhutah prasannatma / na socati na kanksati
samah sarvesu bhutesu / mad-bhaktim labhate param[12]

We can immediately awaken to our original, spiritual existence, in which there is no more fear, no more lamentation, and no more material desire.
Dr. Singh. But the scientist would still want some more explanations as to how the living entity can be independent of matter.
Srila Prabhupada. As long as you are conditioned, you are dependent on matter. For example, a man from Africa is conditioned because he cannot tolerate this cold weather. Therefore he feels discomfort. But there are many people here [gesturing toward children playing on the beach] who are not affected by the cold. The ability to tolerate is simply a question of conditioning.
When you are conditioned, you think in terms of dualities like hot and cold, pain and pleasure. But when you are liberated, you have no such conditioned thoughts. Spiritual life means to become unconditioned--to come to the brahma-bhuta stage. That is the perfection of life. Being conditioned means that although the living entity is eternal, due to his conditioning he thinks that he is born, he is dying, he is diseased and he is old. But an unconditioned person is not even old. Krsna is described in the Brahma-samhita as advaitam acyutam anadim ananta rupam adyam purana-purusam nava-yauvanam ca. This means that He is the oldest person, the first person, but that He has no old age. He always appears just like a young man of twenty because He is fully spiritual.